User talk: Paine Ellsworth Information

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      'Make it YOURS!'
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I am not an administrator. Wouldn't mind being one, although don't really want to be. Wouldn't mind being an admin because I deeply respect many admins and have been helped by them numerous times over the years. I also respect the community vettings at RfA that show the ultimate trust of an editor. Don't really want to be an admin because I guess I'm just too old to go through that sometimes grueling community vetting.

So I shall remain a non-admin caught between two worlds... the world of the admins, which means I'm expected not to close controversial discussions (which I sometimes do, sometimes don't), and the world of less experienced editors who don't want me to close the "easy" discussions (which I also sometimes do, sometimes don't), and save those for them. If it's in the backlog, then it's fair game!

Anyway, if you have come to ask about one of my RfC, RM, MRV or other discussion closures, you are more than welcome! I am prone to change a decision when I'm asked to do so. Please be explicit about your intentions and do not beat around the bush. Thank you for your deeply respected concerns!

'they help us keep our minds sharp!'

Just registered?

Discussions and notifications...collapsedclick [show] to open them, then click the section title in the Table of Contents above
The following are closed discussions. Please do not modify them. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Precious anniversary

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Five years!
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:31, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, Gerda, and thanks also for being so patient with me! P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 09:48, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
I once said "the one thing I learned here is patience" but am not aware of having needed it regarding you ;) - Operas: I wanted infoboxes, not side navboxes, and look at this only seven years later ;) - I will not vote for arb candidates who think that was a success of arbcom, - just common sense prevailed (but when you speak up for that sense you show battleground behaviour and need to be restricted, according to some arbs back then) -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:55, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
By comparison, we see the one editor in the RM who suggested withdrawal. That editor used the same type of adjective in their previous rationale, called it a "selective list". And that editor was the first to firmly oppose "select operas" and the only one to suggest it "wastes the community's time". I seldom open RMs, and when I do open one I truly believe in its rightness. I was wrong this time, however, and your patience was and is appreciated! P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 13:28, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

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1926 Akron football team

Hi, I realize you were using a script for the page moves at Talk:1920 University of Akron football team, so it was likely tricky to change only one of the proposed moves, but can you confirm that there was consensus in that discussion to move 1926 Akron football team to 1926 University of Akron football team instead of 1926 Akron Zippers football team, as I suggested? Based on the sources I found from newspapers in that year, it appears the WP:COMMONNAME for the 1926 squad was "Zippers" instead of the default "University of Akron" team. Eagles  24/7  (C) 17:32, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

To Eagles 24/7: now that I reread the survey and the rationales of Cbl62 and yourself, I see good reason for the 1926 University team to go by the common name of "Zippers". So that article has been renamed. Thank you for your input! P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 03:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Fbdave – courtesy ping to the RM's nom. P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 03:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

The Signpost: 29 November 2020

Edit request

Hi. Sorry to bother you. Apparently nobody is interested in making my edit request, although no specific objection was raised against it. Would you mind adding that sentence to article. I think it's relevant, neutral and pertinent to article. As usual, thanks a lot.-- Watchlonly ( talk) 15:20, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done. P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 15:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – December 2020

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 02:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Edit request

Could you take a look at my last edit request? Thank you very much.-- Watchlonly ( talk) 11:56, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done. P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 13:38, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Other edit requests (not mine)

Talk:2000 Ramallah lynching#Arrests of lynching suspects

Talk:Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People#Controversy-Avi Dichter misquoted

As usual, thank you very much-- Watchlonly ( talk) 16:54, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done, and thank you so much! P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 20:46, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

New Page Patrol December Newsletter

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Hello Paine Ellsworth,

A chart of the 2020 New Page Patrol Queue

Year in review

It has been a productive year for New Page Patrol as we've roughly cut the size of the New Page Patrol queue in half this year. We have been fortunate to have a lot of great work done by Rosguill who was the reviewer of the most pages and redirects this past year. Thanks and credit go to JTtheOG and Onel5969 who join Rosguill in repeating in the top 10 from last year. Thanks to John B123, Hughesdarren, and Mccapra who all got the NPR permission this year and joined the top 10. Also new to the top ten is DannyS712 bot III, programmed by DannyS712 which has helped to dramatically reduce the number of redirects that have needed human patrolling by patrolling certain types of redirects (e.g. for differences in accents) and by also patrolling editors who are on on the redirect whitelist.

Rank Username Num reviews Log
1 DannyS712 bot III ( talk) 67,552 Patrol Page Curation
2 Rosguill ( talk) 63,821 Patrol Page Curation
3 John B123 ( talk) 21,697 Patrol Page Curation
4 Onel5969 ( talk) 19,879 Patrol Page Curation
5 JTtheOG ( talk) 12,901 Patrol Page Curation
6 Mcampany ( talk) 9,103 Patrol Page Curation
7 DragonflySixtyseven ( talk) 6,401 Patrol Page Curation
8 Mccapra ( talk) 4,918 Patrol Page Curation
9 Hughesdarren ( talk) 4,520 Patrol Page Curation
10 Utopes ( talk) 3,958 Patrol Page Curation
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Reviewer of the Year

John B123 has been named reviewer of the year for 2020. John has held the permission for just over 6 months and in that time has helped cut into the queue by reviewing more than 18,000 articles. His talk page shows his efforts to communicate with users, upholding NPP's goal of nurturing new users and quality over quantity.

NPP Technical Achievement Award

As a special recognition and thank you DannyS712 has been awarded the first NPP Technical Achievement Award. His work programming the bot has helped us patrol redirects tremendously - more than 60,000 redirects this past year. This has been a large contribution to New Page Patrol and definitely is worthy of recognition.

Six Month Queue Data: Today – 2262 Low – 2232 High – 10271

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here

18:16, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Edit requests

Hi. In light of the recent changes regarding Arab countries that joined the Abraham accords and established diplomatic relations with Israel, I've made three edit requests in different articles to reflect the new situation:

Talk:Israel#Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 December 2020

Talk:History of Israel#Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 December 2020

Thank you very much. Have a great week.-- Watchlonly ( talk) 21:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

To Watchlonly: just letting you know that I have read the above and am looking them over. P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 16:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
To Watchlonly: Been very busy offline, so sorry, and I see that your edits were covered, so congratulations! and Best Wishes for the holidays! P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 17:46, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

••••🎄Merry Christmas🎄••••

"May you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a ..Merry Christmas.. and a ..Happy New Year.., whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you ..warm greetings.. for Christmas and New Year 2021."

Happy editing,

To 245CMR: thank you very much! and we wish the Best of Everything to You and Yours! P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 15:15, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Merry Christmas Paine Ellsworth!

Wikipedia Happy New Year.png Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2021!

Hello Paine Ellsworth, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2021.
Happy editing,

Jerm ( talk) 00:10, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Spread the love by adding {{ subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

Thank you very much, Jerm, and Best of Everything to You and Yours this holiday season! P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 04:50, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Two edit requests

Could you take a look at this and this? Thanks-- Watchlonly ( talk) 20:37, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

To Watchlonly: see these have been done by other editors. Are you happy with the outcomes? P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 17:10, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Yes, thank you.-- Watchlonly ( talk) 19:15, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

The Signpost: 28 December 2020

Khtsaberd/Çaylaqqala move discussion closure

Hey! I hope you looked carefully at all the arguments on the move discussion on Talk:Çaylaqqala, I've linked a previous relevant discussion [1] in the text where an admin was consulted regarding the issue, and there has also been an issue with canvassing with regard to the move request and other connected ones: [ [2]]. The recent move discussion for the connected (part of the same previous NK holdout pocket) town of Hin Tagher [3] is also relevant for this case.

While an RfC for a naming convention for Nagorno-Karabakh may be necessary in the end as has been suggested, most of the opposing arguments in the discussion are not based on referring to Wikipedia guidelines such as WP:COMMONNAME in order to make their case but are partisan in nature, and so to argue that consensus as Wikipedia guidelines define it (Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.) has been achieved as you've written, is a bit problematic in my view - while it perhaps could be said that there is a lack of clear consensus or that a standard move request is problematic considering the contentious nature of the issue and that an RfC for a naming convention is needed. AntonSamuel ( talk) 10:26, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

To AntonSamuel: yes, it appears that you are correct that a naming convention, i.e. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Azerbaijan), for related articles should be sought by use of a Request for Comment (RfC) discussion. What I saw in this particular RM was mostly implied disagreement and opposition to your COMMONNAME rationale. Special attention will need to be paid to potential canvassing in the RfC. Until a more solid naming convention is in place, RMs such as this one will remain contentious, sometimes successful and sometimes not. If there is any particular action that you want me to take, just let me know, and please be clear and specific. P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 14:27, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply! Would you perhaps consider consulting an administrator about this particular move closure? The closure and its description: "Not moved per consensus seen below" - that there would be a consensus against the proposal, is a bit problematic in my view considering how Wikipedia guidelines and policy defines consensus - the majority of the input wasn't argumentation referring to Wikipedia guidelines regarding article names such as WP:AT/ WP:COMMONNAME, and the issue with canvassing for this and other connected move requests for Nagorno-Karabakh localities should be taken into regard as well in my view. As a result of the move closure, the current situation for the two villages in the former hold out pocket in the Hadrut area is also a bit inconsistent, with " Hin Tagher" having been renamed to its common name while Khtsaberd (Çaylaqqala) hasn't been. AntonSamuel ( talk) 14:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
To AntonSamuel: would be happy to seek the guidance of admin Andrewa, who is perhaps better informed in regard to these articles in question. Andrewa, perhaps you could shed light on the highest and best way forward? P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 15:08, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Interesting! In summary I support the close.
I think there is no doubt that not moved was the correct close. There was certainly no consensus to move, and no prospect of achieving one, and so no point relisting. But that doesn't seem to be the issue here. The only issue seems to be, is there consensus not to move?
It is extremely messy. Most of the argument concerns the military position, and should be discarded. There is no appeal to wp:IAR, and so that argument cannot be taken into account in assessing this consensus. There is evidence of disruption, specifically canvassing.
It is a great pity that the non-arguments were not addressed as such when raised before the RM, at Talk:Çaylaqqala#Control of course, or at Talk:Hin Tagher which is linked above. But that is water under the bridge. It shows what we are up against. The previous RM at Talk:Karakend, also linked above, was closed by myself as no consensus, with a great deal of thought, comment, and subsequent discussion. But in hindsight that did not do anything to address this. The position has subsequently deteriorated. There is no evidence of any increased awareness of Wikipedia policy on the matter, or even that some participants have bothered to read the article naming policy. If they have done so they have chosen to simply ignore it.
It is messy whatever we do, and a courageous close, and whether or not there are grounds for challenging the assessment of consensus, I think there is absolutely no reason to do so. Any reversal is in any case clearly against the interests of Wikipedia in my opinion. I recommend to all interested parties my essay the Wikipedia creed if in any doubt how I am coming to this conclusion, and hope that helps. Andrewa ( talk) 22:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@ Andrewa: Thanks for the feedback! Pinging some more administrators: @ Rosguill: @ Ymblanter: @ El C: My main problem with the outcome of this debate is that I believe that I've presented pretty clear evidence or at least strong indication regarding the common name of the village - however, the opposing arguments largely weren't arguing with regard to Wikipedia guidelines, and canvassing has also been an issue that has affected the debate. So, if this is the situation we're in, that a move request can be stalled and overturned by procedural issues and optics so easily - I would argue that these debates are then pretty vulnerable to WP:FILIBUSTER/ Wikipedia:Status quo stonewalling, not adhering to the purpose of Wikipedia and its guidelines. What do you guys think is the best way to move forward? I am committed to try to see to it that these articles are named according to their common names as much as possible - is the option of an RfC for a naming convention for Nagorno-Karabakh the only viable and legitimate option? I don't think I'll personally try to initiate further move requests if the outcome of this debate will be replicated en masse again. AntonSamuel ( talk) 01:22, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

AntonSamuel, I don't really have much of import to add. The close seems to have been the right call, though as far as closing summaries go, it isn't really one or is basically just half of one — merely noting the outcome per se. isn't what we expect in closing summaries. There has to be more. Anyway, there also appears to have been some canvassing, which is unfortunate, but it looks unlikely that things would have turned the other way absent that (I estimate). As for arguing the finer points of whether this request should have been closed as consensus against or, failing that, merely as no consensus — my sense is that this probably isn't a worthwhile exercise. El_C 01:57, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
AntonSamuel I suggest you read Wikipedia:Admin shopping, noting that it is a policy and that most (hopefully all) admins will be familiar with it. Andrewa ( talk) 06:34, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Andrewa: I'm sorry if I gave a bad impression by tagging multiple administrators, my intention wasn't to attempt to overrule or go above anybody's head - I'll keep WP:ADMINSHOP in mind in the future. At this point, I'm most of all just looking for feedback on how to proceed from here, so I thought it might be helpful to get input from the admins that I've interacted with before regarding this and related issues. AntonSamuel ( talk) 10:54, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
To AntonSamuel: just to let you know that it's all good. Actually, I'm honored that you would come to my talk page about this. I sincerely thank you for your continued contributions to Wikipedia and hope that you and yours have a Happy and Prosperous New Year in 2021! Happy New Year to all! P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 13:08, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Thank you very much, I'm happy to hear that and I wish you a Happy New Year too! AntonSamuel ( talk) 13:31, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
AntonSamuel I'd like to echo Paine's all good. I recognise that you are trying exceptionally hard to do the right thing. See WP:creed#bold and we need more like you. Andrewa ( talk) 03:39, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Andrewa: Thanks a lot! I'm glad to hear that you appreciate my efforts. AntonSamuel ( talk) 12:07, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Paine Ellsworth!

Snowman icon.png

Happy New Year!

Hello Paine Ellsworth: Thanks for all of your contributions to Wikipedia, and have a great New Year! Cheers, 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 ( 𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Send New Year cheer by adding {{ subst:Happy New Year snowman}} to people's talk pages with a friendly message.

To 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰: thank you so much! and here's hope that you and yours will have the Happiest New Year ever! P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 14:30, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Text color codes for the Miami Dolphins & Los Angeles Chargers over at Module:Gridiron color/data

Hello Paine Ellsworth ( talk), I was wondering if you would please change the HTML text color codes for the Miami Dolphins & Los Angeles Chargers over at Module:Gridiron color/data? Specifically, I'm requesting that the HTML text color codes for both teams be changed from  black  to  white . Please make these changes for me? Charlesaaronthompson ( talk) 00:50, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello Charlesaaronthompson, I'd like to help, and yet such changes cannot be made without at least providing reliable sources that support such changes. Still waiting for such a source at Module:Gridiron color#Template-protected edit request on 21 December 2020. Happiest of New Years to You and Yours! P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 02:42, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Charlesaaronthompson: Again with trying to force that color combination through in violation of WP:CONTRAST and contradiction of your "apology" at User_talk:Eagles247#I'm_sorry? Eagles  24/7  (C) 20:37, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – January 2021

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 00:08, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Edit request

Could you take a look at this edit request? Thanks-- Watchlonly ( talk) 01:57, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Please see my response at the edit request. P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 09:58, 11 January 2021 (UTC)