Talk:Ivy League Article

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Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2016

First of all, I am a brand-new editor; this is the first article I have worked on. So if I suggest something that isn't acceptable in the Wikipedia world, please forgive me and correct my errors. Thanks!

My edit requests have to do with the following text in the article: "Listed from in order from greatest number of Nobel laureates are: Harvard with 153 Nobel winners, the most out of any university in the world. This is followed by Columbia with 101 winners, Yale with 52, Cornell with 45, Princeton with 37, and Penn with 29 Nobel laureates. [1] These figures are self-reported by the universities themselves,[ citation needed] who use widely varying definitions for which Nobel winners are claimed as affiliates, for example, only degree-holding alumni or active faculty or former faculty, visiting faculty, adjunct faculty, etc. Many universities are notorious for claiming laureates with only tenuous informal connections in order to inflate their count of winners.[citation needed]"

Edit Request #1: As there is no citation, and as the sentence is clearly not unbiased in tone, delete: "Many universities are notorious for claiming laureates with only tenuous informal connections in order to inflate their count of winners."

Edit Request #2: Description of the problem: The citation for this list of the number of Nobel laureates for each school is given as the "Nobel Laureates and Research Affiliations" page on the Nobel website ( https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/lists/universities.html). But the body of the text immediately thereafter states that the source of the numbers is self-reported. Which is it? To determine this I went to the cited page and carefully counted, and the numbers above don't even resemble those on the Nobel site. Maybe the numbers are supposed to be referring to self-reported numbers, but if so, the Nobel site shouldn't be the citation, and where DID the numbers come from? I then found what seems to be a very comprehensive list of university affiliations of Nobel laureates already in Wikipedia, so linking to that seemed logical.

Suggested Revision: "According to the Nobel Foundation's website, as of 2016 the number of prize-winners affiliated with each Ivy League university at the time of their awards is: Brown, 2; Columbia, 17; Cornell, 8; Dartmouth, 0; Harvard, 36; Penn, 4; Princeton, 14; and Yale, 8. [2] In addition, each university self-reports their number of affiliated Nobel laureates, but they use varying definitions for which Nobel winners they claim (for example, alumni, active faculty, former faculty, visiting faculty, adjunct faculty, etc.) To view a comprehensive list, visit the List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation article." SueH ( talk) 20:07, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Nobel Laureates and Research Affiliations". Nobelprize.org.
  2. ^ "Nobel Laureates and Research Affiliations". Nobelprize.org.
Done with a few tweaks. Apologies for the length of time this request has been opened. If the edit is disputed, consider further discussion here —  Andy W. ( talk) 01:18, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2016

JannsCo ( talk) 01:00, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay ( talk) 08:59, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 December 2016

Harvard's endowment is $37.6 Billion. Please, change. 2600:8805:8807:B600:B0AC:341E:97EC:1C02 ( talk) 00:08, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Note that the source currently cited may support the entire sentence, not just the part about Harvard. Rivertorch FIRE WATER 06:02, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Reference to Little Ivies

This page contains an erroneous list of Little Ivies. This asserted list of specific schools is referenced by nothing more than a link to NESCAC. NESCAC is most definitely not by definition the inclusive list of the Little Ivies. The inclusion of this list is solely a subjective opinion that was added to this article by one of the known sock-puppets of user Donspencer1 who was engaged in boosterism of a certain CBB school. Please delete this list as it is an unsubstantiated claim of the inclusive membership of a highly contentious and completely unofficial grouping of schools that many covet an affiliation with. There is no such thing an an "Official list of Little Ivies." For further information please read the rather long Little Ivy talk page and the even longer associated archive. 74.70.116.187 ( talk) 03:02, 12 January 2017 (UTC)


Deleting information in order to conform to similar athletic conference articles

Please discuss this issue here instead of edit-warring.

In my view, deleting such a significant amount of information needs to be justified, and hasn't been.

Please note that this article is not only about the athletic conference, but the Ivy League as a group beyond the sports context. -- TimothyDexter ( talk) 05:31, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I clearly explained the reason as to why I removed the content, but I'll say it again this time spelling it out:
  1. I've switched the colors to automatic color box so that the colors won't be wrong and it is less work correcting the color mistakes.
  2. I removed the "Undergraduate" and "Graduate" columns because they take up too much space and can be condensed into one column like other conference articles. IMO: if someone wants to know the school statistics on the enrollment, they'll go the university article; we only need the total.
  3. Same goes for the motto. That has no relevance for this article. If someone wants to know the school's motto, they'll go to the university article or the university website. It also took up too much space.
  4. I moved the text-align from "left" to "center" to make it more clean, as well as more readable. I also the Institution column bolded, and a different color with "!" instead of "|" so that it stays consistent and it stands out to the reader.
My main point: Consistency. Quite honestly, the "Academic staff" column should be removed, too, for consistency and be replaced with a "founded" or "joined" column. All conferences go "beyond the sports context", but the conferences are for sports, which is the main reason they exist. All of the "academic" stuff is listed below and is not important enough for the tables above. Corkythe hornetfan (ping me) 18:30, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

The majority of this article is not sports-related and not related to the Ivy League as an athletic conference. When most people talk about the Ivy League, sports is typically the last thing on their mind. The enrollment breakdown is important because each of these universities makes a very strong distinction between its undergraduate college(s) and its research university components. The mottos are historically relevant due to the shared history of these institutions (which goes well beyond the athletic conference). This is all information that a person wanting to learn more about the Ivy League would want to find in this article, and there is no reason to remove this information beyond indulging your personal need for consistency across athletic conference-related articles. I err on the side of preserving information. Your formatting changes are quite useful on the other hand, so thanks for that. I'll preserve those while restoring the information you deleted. -- TimothyDexter ( talk) 19:09, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2017

Under section 'U.S. Presidents in the Ivy League,' when 'Harvard University' is listed for the undergraduate school, the entry should read 'Harvard College' or 'Harvard College (University)'.

I don't believe this edit applies to the other 7 Ivy League institutions. Doctoross ( talk) 14:43, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  B E C K Y S A Y L E 03:38, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

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people accepted to all 8

I maintain that keeping a list of people accepted to all 8 schools does not rise to the level of being encyclopedic. The students themselves are not notable, nor is the achievement. The list itself will always be incomplete, because this is not the sort of thing that has historically attracted news coverage until very recently. It's trivia and does not belong in the article. Esrever ( klaT) 18:26, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

All the students are non notable; it is not fitting to have such details on the page. Ber31 ( talk) 05:29, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
It is absolutely ridiculous to contend that getting into all Ivy League schools is not a tremendous feat. More people have crossed the Atlantic on row boats and we keep talking about them on Wikipedia. Bantam1984 ( talk) 16:55, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
"More people have crossed the Atlantic on rowboats?" How do you even know that for a fact? How do we know how many people have been accepted into all 8 Ivies? What source would you use? Admissions information is not public. By the way, would that list go back to 1954, when the Ivy League was established, or 1865, when Cornell opened, or some other year? Further, Wikipedia relies on notability of the individual. Being accepted into all 8 Ivies does not count as "notable," even if it is rare. - Kzirkel ( talk) 15:02, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
"Wikipedia relies on notability of the individual" - for biographical articles, sure. As entries in a list? Absolutely not. Regardless, being accepted into all ivy leagues is pretty notable. "How do we know how many people have been accepted into all 8 Ivies? What source would you use? Admissions information is not public." the sources were listed in there, if you have some to add feel free to make a note that the list is incomplete and then add your own. That's better than what you're doing now in your destructive deletion notable, interesting facts. - Bantam1984 ( talk) 20:27, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2017

WP:DENY
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Please, change the third paragraph to represent up to date information. The article does not even remotely address recent widespread criticism across North America and Europe related to elitism, of which Ivy League schools surely represent. In the past decade, there has been massive animosity and push back on campuses and on the internet, related to the establishment and higher institutions, and it is important to note that the exclusivity and financial disparities these Ivy Leagues represent. It is an important part of American, and even western history, to document that the middle class and lower class are struggling to accept the word of these institutions and the ideologies they represent, as seen with recent animosity and rejection of Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and the Northeast ideologies. Wikipedia, I have donated money to you in the past, and protecting this website from editing is a form of security but also censorship. This page, and many others, should represent the truth. That is what Wikipedia means to me, and no where, substantively, in this document, is the opposition view represented. I would like the alternative view represented in which it is clearly stated that people do not view these institutions as prestigious and are in fact quite hostile towards them. (Probably why this page is difficult to edit). Nonetheless, it is the truth of our times.

--PARAGRAPH THREE--

Ivy League schools, ... despite recent times of general hostility, resentment, and animosity towards elitism and protected establishments, they are are still generally viewed as some of the most prestigious ..., and are ranked among the best universities worldwide by U.S. News & World Report.[4] All eight universities place in the top fifteen of the U.S. News & World Report 2017 nation university rankings, including the top four schools and five of the top eight.[5] U.S. News has named a member of the Ivy League as the best national university in each of the past seventeen years ending with the 2017 rankings: Princeton ten times, Harvard twice, and the two schools tied for first five times. Jewishownership ( talk) 01:20, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. SparklingPessimist Scream at me! 01:29, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2017

IT'S IV MEANING THE 4 SCHOOLS PRINCETON, BROWN, YALE, AND HARVARD. IT WAS TERMED IV LEAGUE FOR THE SPORTS PROGRAMS. 108.34.159.158 ( talk) 21:07, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Sakura Cartelet Talk 21:12, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

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One update and one addition

First, the update. The article contains the following sentence about Sprint Football:

In addition to varsity football, Penn, Princeton and Cornell also field teams in the eight-team Collegiate Sprint Football League, in which all players must weigh 172 pounds or less. Penn and Princeton are the last remaining founding members of the league from its 1934 debut, and Cornell is the next-oldest, joining in 1937. Yale and Columbia previously fielded teams in the league but no longer do so.

However, Princeton has discontinued its Sprint Football program, see below link to the announcement:

<ref> https://www.princeton.edu/news/2016/04/11/princeton-discontinue-sprint-football-program<ref>

Second, the addition. The article cites a number of Ivy League football players who have gone on to play for Super Bowl champions in the NFL:

In addition, the Ivy League has produced Super Bowl winners Kevin Boothe (Cornell), two-time Pro Bowler Zak DeOssie (Brown), Sean Morey (Brown), All-Pro selection Matt Birk (Harvard), Calvin Hill (Yale), Derrick Harmon (Cornell) and 1999 "Mr. Irrelevant" Jim Finn (Penn).

That list omits Gary Fencik (Yale) who played 12 seasons for the Chicago Bears including the 1985 Super Bowl champions:

<ref> http://webot.org/info/en/?search=Gary_Fencik<ref>

Add/Change sports tables

I think you should change the sports table under the Teams section. You have Ivy League sponsored sports, which include some sports not sponsored by NCAA. Most of the other college sports conference pages have this table but only list the NCAA sponsored sports. They then have a table for men's teams with green checks and red x's to show which colleges participate in which sports. Under that they have another table for other varsity sports not sponsored by the NCAA with the name of the governing conference/league(?) in place of the checks. They do the same with the women's teams. On the individual college teams pages they mention rowing team in is the EARC or the wrestling team is in the EWL, but not all of them do. The conference page with these tables allows you to see exactly which sports are played by which colleges and in which conference/league. Your explanation about the Ivy League having their own champion for just the Ivy League regardless of what conference the sport is played in is good, but that doesn't tell us the above mentioned info. Out of 31 conference pages, only this one and the SWAC, the NEC and the MEAC don't have these tables. If you don't want to add these tables, maybe you could add a paragraph about the non-NCAA sports, which colleges play these sports and which league they play in like you did with hockey. Other than this, the page is great and has plenty of good info. Jdtrue63 ( talk) 09:12, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2018

In the section titled "Rivalries" it says that Cornell and Princeton are the only Ivy League teams to win the NCAA Div. 1 lacrosse tournament. Yale won in 2018.

Change "In men's lacrosse, Cornell and Princeton are perennial rivals, and they are the only two Ivy League teams to have won the NCAA tournament." to "In men's lacrosse, Cornell and Princeton are perennial rivals, and they were the only two Ivy League teams to have won the NCAA tournament until Yale won in 2018."

2604:2000:7202:3500:6C03:324F:3D44:D259 ( talk) 15:41, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.-- B dash ( talk) 05:40, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
I mean, that's a little lazy. :P It's pretty easy to find this right on the NCAA's lax homepage. Esrever ( klaT) 00:02, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Source for change: Yale takes down Duke for program's first national title https://www.ncaa.com/news/lacrosse-men/article/2018-05-28/2018-ncaa-college-lacrosse-championship-yale-takes-down-duke — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:7204:B00:3582:6DB0:3A95:EC8E ( talk) 15:48, 3 December 2018 (UTC)